I find the quote, “we will take back our government” quite chilling. Take back from whom? Who falls into “our”? It nods toward the idea we hear more and more of lately that some Americans are more American than other Americans. I can’t think of an historical example where that kind of thinking led to something positive.
Nothing about these conversations makes me feel any less certain that the goal of Project 2025 is to install Donald Trump as a dictator. What’s even more terrifying is their gaslighting. We watched January 6th and no amount of their lying will make that less real than it is.
I am beyond angry that we as an electorate are powerless to fix this mess.
“Devine told me to get real. He said that people are not worried about some “hypothetical dictatorship” in the distant future, what they’re worried about, he said, is Trump.”
These are not mutually exclusive. There are many of us who are concerned about a hypothetical dictator and that hypothetical dictator is Trump.
It doesn’t seem like something to scoff at, but here we are, living in different realities. One where the elected president is the authoritarian and the guy trying to overturn the legitimate election is the one who is going to save our country.
My thoughts exactly. Does he really believe that or is that what they just keep repeating until it becomes fact to the MAGA crowd? The sharp contrast between Biden’s response to his own kid’s legal situation and the Trump response is remarkable, too. Who is the one to uphold democracy and the rule of law? They are casting doubt on the whole judicial system. It’s very scary to me.
I am still struggling to get past the idea he wants us to believe that he devoted so much of the precious time he has left in this world constructing something that he says can never come to pass. That position makes as much sense to me as one plus one equals three.
I think it’s important to remember that Devine is an academic. Academics operate less in the “real world” and more in the theoretical. I actually believe him when he says he doesn’t think it will happen.
Dans, on the other hand, scares me. While he has a law degree from UVA, he’s not dealing in Ivy tower theoretical ideas here. He really believes it.
Sharon, Project 2025 is being referred to by some as a Christian Nationalist manifesto, and some of the wording, which we might consider odd is really coded language that means something specific to those types of people. And yes, it is scary. I have trouble sleeping at night because of all of this.
Having spent a good amount of time traveling yearly with my husband to lobby Senators and Congresspersons, I saw how the sausage is made. New representatives spend a good amount of time learning the landscape. AIDS—who have often worked for other representatives—are necessary to explain the details. Experts are required to understand regulations. AND lobbyists often need to explain the hazards of proposed laws. It is the long-term government employees who coordinate all the different goings on. I can’t even comprehend HOW the government would function without them. The comments on how republicans don’t understand how the government works is fair. This attempted take over is nuts to me
I’m rather offended by the whole “take back our government “ statement. Excuse me sir, who is your definition of “our”??? It is as much mine as yours, as every citizen. How dare you! Take it back from ??? Anyone who feels differently than you? This all flies red flags to me. I feel like this is Hitler all over again, and he wrote his manifesto in advance so everyone knew the plan as well. At this point hell will freeze over before this registered Republican (I’ve bailed and will be homeless as far as a party) votes as such again.
I really don't understand their thinking. It flies in the face logic. How do they think government will be given back to the people if all the power is given to one man, the president? That's straight up dictatorship with the people having no power. The mental gymnastics they do to justify all this exhausts me.
Sharon, does the document or did either of the men you interviewed give any insight into how it would look after he left office? In a theoretical world where Project 25 was successful AND Trump also followed current laws/left office after 4 years, how do they see this being helpful to their cause should a left/liberal take office after Trump? If they believe the power should be given to the president, that would mean anyone voted into office, not just Republicans, right?
If I hazard a guess here, I'd say they will have so many people in place (the ones cherry picked from their loyal database) and new rules/laws (check out the NYT article that came out yesterday called, "In Secret Recordings, Alito Endoreses Nation of "Godliness..."), that it will be impossible for another democrat to win anything. Thus the authoritarian government/dictatorship is born. Think Russia.
Look at Texas. The Republicans there also have a kind of manifesto. Was just reading about it from Karen Tumlty in the Washington Post. One of the things they are trying to do if they win the majority is to make it so that a person who wins an election also has to win more than half the counties, not just total votes (as I understand it). Most counties in TX are very red. So effectively, if they put their plans through, it would make it impossible for a Democrat to ever win in Texas. So major gerrymandering. They also have some very interesting ideas about how the Bible would be taught in public school and not as an option. When you have power, you can do a lot to keep your status.
Yeah, I get that’s the general sentiment. I’m just curious how they would answer it in a hypothetical context. Are they willing to admit that’s their goal and if not, what would they tell a follower who was concerned about Trump’s successor having the power they think he should have? I feel like there are important questions that aren’t being answered.
“If Jan 6 is the worst they have to deal with,” he continued, “they don’t have to worry about anything. The whole thing is blown up to scare people.” I watched every second of the Jan 6 insurrection and sat in horror as things unfolded. Does this man believe that we didn’t see it for our own eyes? Does he think that we don’t remember the call for Vice President Pence to be hanged and that Trump himself chimed in by saying that ‘Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what he should have done to protect our country and our Constitution!’ thereby fueling the fire even more? Good night above! I have so many questions. If they kit out government with only like-minded employees, a staff of yes-men and women, how is that not authoritarian rule? Where is the room for compromise? It boggles the mind.
My parents 100% believe that every one present on Jan 6 were "foreign" people hired to "play a part." It wasn't real. And since Fox didn't really cover any of the trials and stuff...they didn't see nor will they ever believe that any of those people were actual Trump supporting Americans. The intentional blindness is wackadoodle.
I totally agree!! Honestly, 9/11 and Jan. 6 will forever haunt me. It's insulting for anyone to pretend it wasn't what it was -- a president who encouraged people to make sure the election wasn't stolen from him. Not a peep from him for hours. Why? Because he was hoping they'd succeed. And yet, somehow people who did see it like we did, can make excuses for him and how he wasn't involved. Mindboggling!
I'm curious if other republican administrations had such a difficult time filling the appointed roles? Did "traditional" Republicans, such as either Presidents Bush, not fill all those appointments, or was this a Trump problem, because he was an outsider and most traditional republican system types had little respect for him (as I think we can see in Don Devine's comments)? I realize today, Trump is firmly the leader of the republican party, but that wasn't quite so true in 2016. A lot of former Republican technocrats left being active party members because of Trump, such as the founders of the Lincoln Project.
I have not gone back and looked at every president, but securing a sufficient quantity of political appointees does not seem to have been a problem for George W. Bush.
While I don’t have the specific stats, anecdotally I knew many many who worked for Bush Jr and would never ever ever work for Trump. In DC, at least, Trump is widely considered to be reckless, self-promoting and not even a “real” Republican amongst *traditional* Republican circles. And people like Gaetz and MTG are snubbed and shunned. (FWIW, I actually think some of this work is rooted in the snubbing that Trump Republicans have felt by their fellow Republicans)
Most still working for less “in your face” Republican members of Congress or some are now lobbyists or at think tanks (AEI in particular).
Sharon has much more wisdom on this than I do (living here honestly doesn’t make me an expert!) but I think they’ve endorsed Trump because they see he’s their best chance of having power and I’m guessing some tell themselves enough “good people” will protect the country from the very worst. And, I think the worst of them see it as a way to rub Dems nose in it. (It’s amazing how much of political power has to do with personal wounds…)
While the first Trump administration was mired in confusion, it seems as though there will be fewer guardrails in place if he were to win again. I'm concerned that the architects of this plan might be closer to the inventors of the atom bomb. There are people currently flying under the radar who are willing to push the button and blow up the government as we know it. Heather Cox Richardson mentioned one such man featured in a Washington Post article that is worth a read: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/06/08/russ-vought-trump-second-term-radical-constitutional/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
"He has helped craft proposals for Donald Trump to deploy the military to quash civil unrest, seize more control over the Justice Department and assert the power to withhold congressional appropriations — and that’s just on Trump’s first day back in office"
Several of these possible powers were exactly why we broke with England.
Amen, and he is a career bureaucrat who knows how the levers of power currently work. He is dissatisfied with our government enough to seize whatever power he potentially can.
I actually think this is a big part of the problem. Sure, Trump himself is a huge problem. But the scariest thing for me is that I don't think he could be doing what he's doing alone and there are hundreds, thousands, more(?)--let's just say scores--of people who also want the authoritarian goals and have the intent and purpose to do what it takes to achieve what they are trying to do. It is disturbing to me so much that so many people like this are flying under the radar as you say. Surrounding him. Keeping him going, supporting him, keeping the narrative going, and, likely, will keep the plan going with or without him.
This is part of the problem in Russia and whether we could see change in Russia. While yes, it is Putin that is a problem, he also has surrounded himself with those who would move in even if he was gone for any reason. This makes it more difficult to have change.
And while it makes it difficult to hope for change in Russia, to do that here would make it also difficult to change it back after a Trump and Project 2025 win.
Such a great point that a lot of the changes to the system were made after Nixon and all the corruption that happened with him.
People who want power want it. And will do whatever they can to get it and keep it.
We need the protections our government has in place.
100% agree. I wonder though, if the personality at the center of the cult of personality is no longer available, where do the moths go when their flame is extinguished? Maybe they scatter and go back underground.
You are correct, now that we know some of the new holes in our boat, we need to find ways to plug them for the next round of sharks. That's mixing metaphors, but I could not help myself.
I don't know, but if Al-Qaeda or IS (ISIS) or Hamas or many other organizations is any indicator, there is usually someone who steps in when the leader is removed. (Studied Middle Eastern studies and Arabic ;) ) It's kind of noticeable how everyone is fawning around Former Pres Trump and would be so happy to step in and take is place if he fell out for any reason. No idea if the cult followers would buy that. People can love a martyr in prison. But it seems like there, more often than not, someone who will step in and fill that cult leader role. Ugh.
By the way, I'm not implying that Trump and his minions are terrorists like Al-Qaeda or IS. But I am looking at it from a kind of birds-eye view, where I tend to look at behaviors as being a part of human nature. So what do different people or groups have in common (also have a background in Sociology)? What is human about this particular thing I am looking at?
So some people are power-hungry. A bully on the playground. A person who commits domestic violence. Rape has long been seen as not necessarily about sex but is about dominance and power, so a rapist. (Hope it is okay to say that here. It is a tender topic for many. Please let me know if that is too specific. I can edit that sentence right out and would be happy to. I have a higher tolerance than many for directness on topics. I do not want to be inappropriate. )
The former President is very much about dominance and power. And so are the people around him. I think it can overrule the other part of their human nature that would be more kind and more likely to do "the right thing for the right reasons." Sadly those caught by power have a difficult time getting out of that pursuit of it even when they want to, and I don't think Former Pres T wants to. He has completely given over (from what I can observe anyway) to that dominance and power part of himself.
Haha. And I loved your mixed metaphors. Very appropriate. :)
I had not thought about AQ or IS as comparable groups. It is interesting, from a purely intellectual exercise, to consider this though. I was thinking more along the lines of religious cults like Jim Jones or David Koresh. It really is amazing that we are at this point as a country, isn't it?
That is another interesting couple of groups to compare to that make sense. More technically cults rather than organizations of terror/intimidation. As in a different kind of follower-believer type relationship. They definitely both want power. Still followers who get lost in what the leaders say.
Yeah, it is amazing and so hard to understand and believe. I think I've been in grief about it since 2016. So constantly shocked by people's responses. I think I've learned a lot about people that maybe I didn't want to know. Now I am just trying to figure out how to respond appropriately and in a helpful way, if that is possible. Sharon's methods and group is a good place to try to sort that out.
I have a hard time believing that a serious minded and intelligent person would look at January 6th and say that wasn't a big deal. Just because a coup wasn't successful doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about its implications. And even if Donald Trump doesn't personally have the wherewithal to plan a successful coup doesn't mean that there aren't people who could and want to place him at the helm when all is said and done. Devine is trying to play us a lullaby. Now I know that his claim that P25 isn't possible is a distraction. Lots of things seem impossible until careful planning and ardent fervor make them possible. Supporters of this vision will call it a miracle when it comes to pass, a divine intervention. And that will cement it.
“Project 2025 says, “With the right conservative policy recommendations and properly vetted and trained personnel to implement them, we will take back our government.”
This part bothers me. Insinuating that the government should only be for conservatives. How can you claim this and also insist you’ll be bringing “more” democracy than “authoritarian Biden.”
I also found his answer deflecting the question about moving people under the power of the president creating more of a dictatorship to be particularly disingenuous. Instead of answering whether it’s creating more of a dictatorship, he simply says that Biden is already a dictator. That’s a non-answer!
I agree that I’d love examples! Also, even if you truly believe Biden exhibits actions of a dictator, I’d love to hear how their plan does not contribute to a consolidation of power.
This is so fascinating. I’m having a hard time discerning whether or not they’re being genuine with their self-defeating language? Like, “Don’t be scared- it wont actually work!” just to play dumb? That seems more likely than them legitimately spending their time and money on something that is hopeless?
I mentioned this above, but I think the contrast we’re seeing in the responses from Devine and Dans has MUCH to do with Devine being an academic and Dans being a “boots on the ground” Trump supporter. Devine reminds me of many of my DC Republican friends who swore up and down Trump would never be the nominee in 2016, because he was…Trump (crass, blundering, not even a “real” R!) only to be shocked when Trump connected with “real” Americans and won. I think we’re still seeing a little bit of that naïveté amongst the non-Trump (or “less Trump”) wing of the party (yes, it still exists though more on a spectrum than before)
Dans, on the other hand (as well as his buddy Russ Vought) and those like him are the ones who legitimately scare me. I really want to say to Dans, in particular, “who hurt you?” It feels like his anger and scorched-earth approach must be rooted in something. And now we’re all watching it play out in real time…
Yes! And the very scary part is that his anger and scorched earth behavior takes down the rest of us with him. I want to understand from Sharon if she finds this alarming and what can we do to prevent it from happening!
Sharon won’t tell you. She will however root for democracy. I have followed her since the Governerd community was forming. She was shocked by January 6th, because she loves our democratic ideals so much. I was fearful that something would happen that day, and I’m so grateful to all who upheld democracy that day. We need a day to celebrate this event similar to Guy Fawkes Day in Britain. We need to reject any reframing the attempted coup as anything other than what is was.
If we had a day to celebrate, half of the country would be celebrating that democracy won, while the other half would be celebrating that they came so close to their goals and just chomping at the bit to try it again.
I found it interesting also that he said “win or lose, he’s going to spend his life dealing with court cases”. Then why would you put him front and center as the candidate for president?
Yes, and they are actively trying to make it so that state cases can be moved to federal courts. It seems so obvious to me that they just try to change the rules if they can’t win by following the rules. Why isn’t this more of a red flag to voters? I honestly don’t get the loyalty to Trump. The comment convinced me even more that there’s something even more sinister going on behind the scenes. It’s not Trump, it’s what they can do with Trump.
This has been something I've been trying to figure out for a while now. Why isn't Trump's failure to follow the rules of more concern to his supporters? I've only come up with one conclusion, and it's fairly scary. They believe that the "system" is rigged against Trump therefore any "rule breaking" he may do is justified because the other side is also breaking rules in their minds. They cannot fathem a reality where Trump is doing anything wrong. Every single thing he does is justifiable. All of it. He is infallible in their eyes. When people call MAGA a cult, they really aren't that far off the mark. When he said he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Ave and no one would care, he wasn't wrong. His supporters and those who fear angering him will find a way to excuse anything he does. It's terrifying.
That part made no sense to me either. He has no say over his state cases. He can pardon himself of any federal ones, but why would you want a president who had ANY sort of cases against them??
I find the quote, “we will take back our government” quite chilling. Take back from whom? Who falls into “our”? It nods toward the idea we hear more and more of lately that some Americans are more American than other Americans. I can’t think of an historical example where that kind of thinking led to something positive.
Nothing about these conversations makes me feel any less certain that the goal of Project 2025 is to install Donald Trump as a dictator. What’s even more terrifying is their gaslighting. We watched January 6th and no amount of their lying will make that less real than it is.
I am beyond angry that we as an electorate are powerless to fix this mess.
100% my thoughts.
“Devine told me to get real. He said that people are not worried about some “hypothetical dictatorship” in the distant future, what they’re worried about, he said, is Trump.”
These are not mutually exclusive. There are many of us who are concerned about a hypothetical dictator and that hypothetical dictator is Trump.
It doesn’t seem like something to scoff at, but here we are, living in different realities. One where the elected president is the authoritarian and the guy trying to overturn the legitimate election is the one who is going to save our country.
My thoughts exactly. Does he really believe that or is that what they just keep repeating until it becomes fact to the MAGA crowd? The sharp contrast between Biden’s response to his own kid’s legal situation and the Trump response is remarkable, too. Who is the one to uphold democracy and the rule of law? They are casting doubt on the whole judicial system. It’s very scary to me.
I am still struggling to get past the idea he wants us to believe that he devoted so much of the precious time he has left in this world constructing something that he says can never come to pass. That position makes as much sense to me as one plus one equals three.
I think it’s important to remember that Devine is an academic. Academics operate less in the “real world” and more in the theoretical. I actually believe him when he says he doesn’t think it will happen.
Dans, on the other hand, scares me. While he has a law degree from UVA, he’s not dealing in Ivy tower theoretical ideas here. He really believes it.
I think this is it, Liz. Academics, in my experience, tend to view the world with a different lens than ideologues do.
Sharon, Project 2025 is being referred to by some as a Christian Nationalist manifesto, and some of the wording, which we might consider odd is really coded language that means something specific to those types of people. And yes, it is scary. I have trouble sleeping at night because of all of this.
There is a lot of Christian nationalism in the project, you're not wrong.
Me too…
This is an interesting observation. Can you point to some examples?
I would have to point you to the Substack called “How Project 2025 Will Ruin Your Life”
Thanks. Just looked it up.
Having spent a good amount of time traveling yearly with my husband to lobby Senators and Congresspersons, I saw how the sausage is made. New representatives spend a good amount of time learning the landscape. AIDS—who have often worked for other representatives—are necessary to explain the details. Experts are required to understand regulations. AND lobbyists often need to explain the hazards of proposed laws. It is the long-term government employees who coordinate all the different goings on. I can’t even comprehend HOW the government would function without them. The comments on how republicans don’t understand how the government works is fair. This attempted take over is nuts to me
I guess you don’t have to understand how something works when your whole purpose is to tear it down.
Nailed it.
I’m rather offended by the whole “take back our government “ statement. Excuse me sir, who is your definition of “our”??? It is as much mine as yours, as every citizen. How dare you! Take it back from ??? Anyone who feels differently than you? This all flies red flags to me. I feel like this is Hitler all over again, and he wrote his manifesto in advance so everyone knew the plan as well. At this point hell will freeze over before this registered Republican (I’ve bailed and will be homeless as far as a party) votes as such again.
They would say "take it back from the administrative state" or "the deep state," and return it to the people by giving the power to the president.
But “giving power to the president” sounds like “king-making.” Do they envision any checks and balances on this presidential power?
I really don't understand their thinking. It flies in the face logic. How do they think government will be given back to the people if all the power is given to one man, the president? That's straight up dictatorship with the people having no power. The mental gymnastics they do to justify all this exhausts me.
And the deep state is???
Sharon, does the document or did either of the men you interviewed give any insight into how it would look after he left office? In a theoretical world where Project 25 was successful AND Trump also followed current laws/left office after 4 years, how do they see this being helpful to their cause should a left/liberal take office after Trump? If they believe the power should be given to the president, that would mean anyone voted into office, not just Republicans, right?
If I hazard a guess here, I'd say they will have so many people in place (the ones cherry picked from their loyal database) and new rules/laws (check out the NYT article that came out yesterday called, "In Secret Recordings, Alito Endoreses Nation of "Godliness..."), that it will be impossible for another democrat to win anything. Thus the authoritarian government/dictatorship is born. Think Russia.
Look at Texas. The Republicans there also have a kind of manifesto. Was just reading about it from Karen Tumlty in the Washington Post. One of the things they are trying to do if they win the majority is to make it so that a person who wins an election also has to win more than half the counties, not just total votes (as I understand it). Most counties in TX are very red. So effectively, if they put their plans through, it would make it impossible for a Democrat to ever win in Texas. So major gerrymandering. They also have some very interesting ideas about how the Bible would be taught in public school and not as an option. When you have power, you can do a lot to keep your status.
Jesus! We are veering off course in a big way!
Yeah, I get that’s the general sentiment. I’m just curious how they would answer it in a hypothetical context. Are they willing to admit that’s their goal and if not, what would they tell a follower who was concerned about Trump’s successor having the power they think he should have? I feel like there are important questions that aren’t being answered.
Not trusting that one bit!
“If Jan 6 is the worst they have to deal with,” he continued, “they don’t have to worry about anything. The whole thing is blown up to scare people.” I watched every second of the Jan 6 insurrection and sat in horror as things unfolded. Does this man believe that we didn’t see it for our own eyes? Does he think that we don’t remember the call for Vice President Pence to be hanged and that Trump himself chimed in by saying that ‘Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what he should have done to protect our country and our Constitution!’ thereby fueling the fire even more? Good night above! I have so many questions. If they kit out government with only like-minded employees, a staff of yes-men and women, how is that not authoritarian rule? Where is the room for compromise? It boggles the mind.
My parents 100% believe that every one present on Jan 6 were "foreign" people hired to "play a part." It wasn't real. And since Fox didn't really cover any of the trials and stuff...they didn't see nor will they ever believe that any of those people were actual Trump supporting Americans. The intentional blindness is wackadoodle.
I totally agree!! Honestly, 9/11 and Jan. 6 will forever haunt me. It's insulting for anyone to pretend it wasn't what it was -- a president who encouraged people to make sure the election wasn't stolen from him. Not a peep from him for hours. Why? Because he was hoping they'd succeed. And yet, somehow people who did see it like we did, can make excuses for him and how he wasn't involved. Mindboggling!
I'm curious if other republican administrations had such a difficult time filling the appointed roles? Did "traditional" Republicans, such as either Presidents Bush, not fill all those appointments, or was this a Trump problem, because he was an outsider and most traditional republican system types had little respect for him (as I think we can see in Don Devine's comments)? I realize today, Trump is firmly the leader of the republican party, but that wasn't quite so true in 2016. A lot of former Republican technocrats left being active party members because of Trump, such as the founders of the Lincoln Project.
I was wondering the same thing. Is this a republican problem or a Trump problem?
I have not gone back and looked at every president, but securing a sufficient quantity of political appointees does not seem to have been a problem for George W. Bush.
'George W. Bush had the shortest official transition in history at just 39 days, but secured more political appointees during his first year in office than any other modern president." https://presidentialtransition.org/blog/the-george-w-bush-transition-to-power/
Thanks, Sharon.
While I don’t have the specific stats, anecdotally I knew many many who worked for Bush Jr and would never ever ever work for Trump. In DC, at least, Trump is widely considered to be reckless, self-promoting and not even a “real” Republican amongst *traditional* Republican circles. And people like Gaetz and MTG are snubbed and shunned. (FWIW, I actually think some of this work is rooted in the snubbing that Trump Republicans have felt by their fellow Republicans)
That gives me hope, but where were (are) they now? Why is the establishment endorsing him? Encouraging the behavior? I don’t understand at all.
Most still working for less “in your face” Republican members of Congress or some are now lobbyists or at think tanks (AEI in particular).
Sharon has much more wisdom on this than I do (living here honestly doesn’t make me an expert!) but I think they’ve endorsed Trump because they see he’s their best chance of having power and I’m guessing some tell themselves enough “good people” will protect the country from the very worst. And, I think the worst of them see it as a way to rub Dems nose in it. (It’s amazing how much of political power has to do with personal wounds…)
It was a Trump problem. Republicans have now made it their problem.
This is the first thing that I wondered as well. Sounds like a Trump problem
While the first Trump administration was mired in confusion, it seems as though there will be fewer guardrails in place if he were to win again. I'm concerned that the architects of this plan might be closer to the inventors of the atom bomb. There are people currently flying under the radar who are willing to push the button and blow up the government as we know it. Heather Cox Richardson mentioned one such man featured in a Washington Post article that is worth a read: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/06/08/russ-vought-trump-second-term-radical-constitutional/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Wow, I hadn't seen this article
But here's a teaser
"He has helped craft proposals for Donald Trump to deploy the military to quash civil unrest, seize more control over the Justice Department and assert the power to withhold congressional appropriations — and that’s just on Trump’s first day back in office"
Several of these possible powers were exactly why we broke with England.
Amen, and he is a career bureaucrat who knows how the levers of power currently work. He is dissatisfied with our government enough to seize whatever power he potentially can.
I actually think this is a big part of the problem. Sure, Trump himself is a huge problem. But the scariest thing for me is that I don't think he could be doing what he's doing alone and there are hundreds, thousands, more(?)--let's just say scores--of people who also want the authoritarian goals and have the intent and purpose to do what it takes to achieve what they are trying to do. It is disturbing to me so much that so many people like this are flying under the radar as you say. Surrounding him. Keeping him going, supporting him, keeping the narrative going, and, likely, will keep the plan going with or without him.
This is part of the problem in Russia and whether we could see change in Russia. While yes, it is Putin that is a problem, he also has surrounded himself with those who would move in even if he was gone for any reason. This makes it more difficult to have change.
And while it makes it difficult to hope for change in Russia, to do that here would make it also difficult to change it back after a Trump and Project 2025 win.
Such a great point that a lot of the changes to the system were made after Nixon and all the corruption that happened with him.
People who want power want it. And will do whatever they can to get it and keep it.
We need the protections our government has in place.
100% agree. I wonder though, if the personality at the center of the cult of personality is no longer available, where do the moths go when their flame is extinguished? Maybe they scatter and go back underground.
You are correct, now that we know some of the new holes in our boat, we need to find ways to plug them for the next round of sharks. That's mixing metaphors, but I could not help myself.
I don't know, but if Al-Qaeda or IS (ISIS) or Hamas or many other organizations is any indicator, there is usually someone who steps in when the leader is removed. (Studied Middle Eastern studies and Arabic ;) ) It's kind of noticeable how everyone is fawning around Former Pres Trump and would be so happy to step in and take is place if he fell out for any reason. No idea if the cult followers would buy that. People can love a martyr in prison. But it seems like there, more often than not, someone who will step in and fill that cult leader role. Ugh.
By the way, I'm not implying that Trump and his minions are terrorists like Al-Qaeda or IS. But I am looking at it from a kind of birds-eye view, where I tend to look at behaviors as being a part of human nature. So what do different people or groups have in common (also have a background in Sociology)? What is human about this particular thing I am looking at?
So some people are power-hungry. A bully on the playground. A person who commits domestic violence. Rape has long been seen as not necessarily about sex but is about dominance and power, so a rapist. (Hope it is okay to say that here. It is a tender topic for many. Please let me know if that is too specific. I can edit that sentence right out and would be happy to. I have a higher tolerance than many for directness on topics. I do not want to be inappropriate. )
The former President is very much about dominance and power. And so are the people around him. I think it can overrule the other part of their human nature that would be more kind and more likely to do "the right thing for the right reasons." Sadly those caught by power have a difficult time getting out of that pursuit of it even when they want to, and I don't think Former Pres T wants to. He has completely given over (from what I can observe anyway) to that dominance and power part of himself.
Haha. And I loved your mixed metaphors. Very appropriate. :)
I had not thought about AQ or IS as comparable groups. It is interesting, from a purely intellectual exercise, to consider this though. I was thinking more along the lines of religious cults like Jim Jones or David Koresh. It really is amazing that we are at this point as a country, isn't it?
That is another interesting couple of groups to compare to that make sense. More technically cults rather than organizations of terror/intimidation. As in a different kind of follower-believer type relationship. They definitely both want power. Still followers who get lost in what the leaders say.
Yeah, it is amazing and so hard to understand and believe. I think I've been in grief about it since 2016. So constantly shocked by people's responses. I think I've learned a lot about people that maybe I didn't want to know. Now I am just trying to figure out how to respond appropriately and in a helpful way, if that is possible. Sharon's methods and group is a good place to try to sort that out.
I have a hard time believing that a serious minded and intelligent person would look at January 6th and say that wasn't a big deal. Just because a coup wasn't successful doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about its implications. And even if Donald Trump doesn't personally have the wherewithal to plan a successful coup doesn't mean that there aren't people who could and want to place him at the helm when all is said and done. Devine is trying to play us a lullaby. Now I know that his claim that P25 isn't possible is a distraction. Lots of things seem impossible until careful planning and ardent fervor make them possible. Supporters of this vision will call it a miracle when it comes to pass, a divine intervention. And that will cement it.
“Project 2025 says, “With the right conservative policy recommendations and properly vetted and trained personnel to implement them, we will take back our government.”
This part bothers me. Insinuating that the government should only be for conservatives. How can you claim this and also insist you’ll be bringing “more” democracy than “authoritarian Biden.”
I also found his answer deflecting the question about moving people under the power of the president creating more of a dictatorship to be particularly disingenuous. Instead of answering whether it’s creating more of a dictatorship, he simply says that Biden is already a dictator. That’s a non-answer!
Admit nothing, deny everything, immediately begin counter accusations!
I'd also love examples of where Biden is acting as a dictator, wouldn't you?
I agree that I’d love examples! Also, even if you truly believe Biden exhibits actions of a dictator, I’d love to hear how their plan does not contribute to a consolidation of power.
This is so fascinating. I’m having a hard time discerning whether or not they’re being genuine with their self-defeating language? Like, “Don’t be scared- it wont actually work!” just to play dumb? That seems more likely than them legitimately spending their time and money on something that is hopeless?
How can they say “The way to stop a dictatorship is to get the power out from the government.”
And then be actively trying to give a small few in government more power?!
Yea...he completely contradicted himself.
I mentioned this above, but I think the contrast we’re seeing in the responses from Devine and Dans has MUCH to do with Devine being an academic and Dans being a “boots on the ground” Trump supporter. Devine reminds me of many of my DC Republican friends who swore up and down Trump would never be the nominee in 2016, because he was…Trump (crass, blundering, not even a “real” R!) only to be shocked when Trump connected with “real” Americans and won. I think we’re still seeing a little bit of that naïveté amongst the non-Trump (or “less Trump”) wing of the party (yes, it still exists though more on a spectrum than before)
Dans, on the other hand (as well as his buddy Russ Vought) and those like him are the ones who legitimately scare me. I really want to say to Dans, in particular, “who hurt you?” It feels like his anger and scorched-earth approach must be rooted in something. And now we’re all watching it play out in real time…
Yes! And the very scary part is that his anger and scorched earth behavior takes down the rest of us with him. I want to understand from Sharon if she finds this alarming and what can we do to prevent it from happening!
Sharon won’t tell you. She will however root for democracy. I have followed her since the Governerd community was forming. She was shocked by January 6th, because she loves our democratic ideals so much. I was fearful that something would happen that day, and I’m so grateful to all who upheld democracy that day. We need a day to celebrate this event similar to Guy Fawkes Day in Britain. We need to reject any reframing the attempted coup as anything other than what is was.
If we had a day to celebrate, half of the country would be celebrating that democracy won, while the other half would be celebrating that they came so close to their goals and just chomping at the bit to try it again.
I agree. We would just have an official understanding that it wasn’t a calm group of tourists or an FBI set up.
I found it interesting also that he said “win or lose, he’s going to spend his life dealing with court cases”. Then why would you put him front and center as the candidate for president?
He will make the federal cases go away if he gets into office.
Yes, and they are actively trying to make it so that state cases can be moved to federal courts. It seems so obvious to me that they just try to change the rules if they can’t win by following the rules. Why isn’t this more of a red flag to voters? I honestly don’t get the loyalty to Trump. The comment convinced me even more that there’s something even more sinister going on behind the scenes. It’s not Trump, it’s what they can do with Trump.
This has been something I've been trying to figure out for a while now. Why isn't Trump's failure to follow the rules of more concern to his supporters? I've only come up with one conclusion, and it's fairly scary. They believe that the "system" is rigged against Trump therefore any "rule breaking" he may do is justified because the other side is also breaking rules in their minds. They cannot fathem a reality where Trump is doing anything wrong. Every single thing he does is justifiable. All of it. He is infallible in their eyes. When people call MAGA a cult, they really aren't that far off the mark. When he said he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Ave and no one would care, he wasn't wrong. His supporters and those who fear angering him will find a way to excuse anything he does. It's terrifying.
That part made no sense to me either. He has no say over his state cases. He can pardon himself of any federal ones, but why would you want a president who had ANY sort of cases against them??
I took it as “people will be going after/accusing Trump for the rest of time”